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chisel

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Here we go guys -- this is the beginning of the quarter panel project. I'm posting this for Joe (using his login) so we can get the forum set up and ready to go.

Note: -- I removed the example photo because it was not a genuine "CABRIOLET" -- TC

What we have to decide is...

1. Just how much has to be made (Is any salvagable?)

2. How do divide up the panel to best fit Joe's available tools and his ability.

3. Then what kind of buck, patterns and templates to use.

4. And finally how to proceed to actually shape the panel.

All how-to comments should be posted here in this thread in the foum on MSA (not through Yahoo)

Casual comments and atta boys can still go through the yahoo forum -- but "keeper" posts need to be made here. Anything that is posted on Yahoo that is usable will be moved here.

Does anyone have any questions about how to participate? -- Terry C

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chisel

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I am ready to start gathering up material for my project. I need help with what kind of a buck to make. Looked at Jim Bailies 34 fender bondo buck album. You members that have made different types of bucks what do you suggest would be best for this project.
Joe

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392hemi

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Jow wrote:I am ready to start gathering up material for my project. I need help with what kind of a buck to make. Looked at Jim Bailies 34 fender bondo buck album. You members that have made different types of bucks what do you suggest would be best for this project.
Joe
===================================================================================

Joe,

Pat Groover and I were discussing bucks a couple days ago and he and I think that wire forms seem to work better for fairly experienced shapers, who don't need an exact guide and who can fly by the seat of their pants. Some guys are just better at making and using wire forms. Others are better at making and using wooden bucks.

Then you have guys like Lazze (The Swede)who doesn't need either one... and would probably just use the existing quarter panels you have to make profile gauges from. Hopefully several members will tell us several ways of going about makeing this part -- then you can choose which one will fit your abilities and and available tools and equipment.

Speaking of Lazze... here is a pic of the quarter panel from his '32:



Terry C

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392hemi

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Myron wrote:
The Brookville roadster rear quarter panels will work on the cabriolet body just reshape the upper wheel well edge you will be ahead of the game !!!!!! pass on building the buck..... or bucks -- Myron Pittsburgh Pa.
http://www.brookvilleroadster.com/

Brookville Roadster, Inc.
718 Albert Road, Brookville, Ohio 45309
937-833-4605 Voice
937-833-4785 Fax
==================================================================

Joe replied:
Hi Myron:
Thank for your reply. The yellow 32 cabriolet pictured on the MSA site has a 32 roadster back half grafted on it. It looks ok, but I want an original looking cabriolet and I am also doing this as a learning experience. This will be my first real metalshaping project and I am hoping that with the help of all the talented people like you on this site I will be able to do it. Again thanks for the reply and am looking for your help.
Joe
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I'm no expert on cabriolets, but as I understand it -- they do not have the flair at the wheel well that the roadsters do. That may be something that could be added, I don't know. For the record, quarter panels without brackets are $1,380 each from Brookville. Looking at the Brookville pic below and Lazze's pic in comparison to the original car -- it does look like there may be quite a bit of difference:






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392hemi

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I wrote: they do not have the flair at the wheel well that the roadsters do.
============================================================================

Oh duh... that's what Myron was saying. I didn't notice he said "upper wheel well edge"

Terry C

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gapingghyll

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Most of the talk, so far, seems to be centred around the rear of
the quarter panel but I presume the discussion will eventually
include the whole panel. In which case, hopefully this post will
still be relevant.

I'm pretty busy with work these days and can't participate much
but I have some time today to contribute to what looks like a
rusted out belt line - circled in the first photo.

The rest of the photos show the repaired belt line of a 29 Hudson
coupe. The turret top was removed - it just bolted in place - so
the basic construction looks very similar to the 32 Ford cabriolet.
In fact, I think Hudson probably had a modular design which allowed
them to build roadsters, coupes, or cabriolets, from the same lower
body panels.

To make the patch, a flanged blank was bent first (it looked like a
straight piece of angle) and then the shrinking was done - using a
Lancaster - along the top of the flange to create the general curve.

Notice the small, double, reverse bend which forms a ledge for the
molding which will conceal the joint where the turret top meets the
quarter panel in the final assembly. Also notice that the final
shape curves up as well as around. No attempt was made (initially)
to put any shape into the side. A small amount of stretching was
induced by hammering (along the corners and flats of the small ridge)
against the edge of an ordinary Blacksmith's anvil. By combining a
little stretch here and a little shrink there, the patch gradually
formed a horizontal curve and also an upward sweep.

At that point there was still little or no shape to the wide flange
which needed to be stretched to make the major belt line shape.
Stretching was used almost exclusively, using a ball ballpein hammer,
and medium crown body hammer, against the top the anvil. Moderate
hits, in small circular patterns, to gradually work up the shape
without destroying the main curve and sweep. The process required
constant correcting with the shrinker (along the upper flange).
Patience and observation are the key. Watch the progress as you
work - correcting little mistakes as you go is much easier.

Photo D shows there is still a little slapper and dolly work to be
done to finish the surface. The grey 'paint' in photo E is just
zinc galvanise. The upper flange (of the actual patch) is fairly
narrow and bolts to a support brace which was fabricated from 16ga.

This was done almost 4 years ago and I didn't take photos of the
actual process, but it took about 2 or 3 days for both pieces - I
can't remember precisely.

I doubt that the entire quarter panel can (easily) be made in one
piece (certainly not by me, anyway) so maybe some of these methods
could be used to make the belt line as a separate part to weld in.


Graham



Attached Files:

  • Belt-d.jpg (27 kb)
  • Belt-a.jpg (34 kb)
  • Belt-c.jpg (29 kb)
  • Belt-e.jpg (34 kb)
  • Belt-b.jpg (33 kb)
  • Rusted_Belt_Line.jpg (73 kb)

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    392hemi

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    Note: I removed the sample photo of the yellow car in the first post now that I see how much different it is than an actual "cabriolet".

    Joe said it had a '32 roadster panel grafted on to it -- and the grafted 32 roadster quarter was a channeled body, so the rear body corners were cut off and Model A rear corners grafted on. So that example looks a little odd and is not the goal here (smile). Just for argument sake -- below are some of the differences between roadster and cabriolet (or at least what I have figured out so far):



    1. There is no bead around the trunk on a cabriolet

    2. The roadster flairs out at the fender well (or sinks in to give the appearance of a flare) whereas the cabriolet is rather flat.

    3. The top bead blends into the bottom panel differently.

    4. The bead around the wheel well is a differnt size and shape, it appears.

    Joe is sending more photos and some more info on the differences.

    Terry C

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    392hemi

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    David Szkilnyk wrote:
    Now, where is the fun in that myron, No keep going Joe, I came across a mint 32 on the weekend and I would absolutely love to copy it. So I am eager to see how this process is completed.

    Now bucks I think it all depends on what you comfortable with the wire bucks using 1/4in wire and bondo in my opinion sound the better option to provide a suitable base to work off. As build a wooden buck you have to get out all the wood working tools, I donít have a problem with that but the wire buck would be better storage and I think results would be seen quicker.

    I am waiting to see how you make the swager lines I have some ideas but I curious as to see what comes up.

    and...

    Can some one post the depth and width of the beads (swage) lines please. Thanx -- Dave.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    While everyone has their measuring tapes out -- I would like to know what the difference is between roadster and cabriolet for the measurement shown below:



    Speaking of beltline width -- Joe do you have one of these profile gauges?:



    If not -- you are going to need one. The only place I know to get them is Eastwood.

    David, you were asking about the "swager" lines... Here is how the Swedes do a 1934 Ford...



    Terry C

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    392hemi

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    David wrote:
    Personally Iíd find a basic set of pics and stick to them.
    Iíll throw another spanner in the works, can this part be made using a hammerform. If I remember correctly this is how the Swedes did it.

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Joe wants to match the cabriolet body exactly and he has a fairly straight but rusty original to go by.

    The Swedes use a beading machine -- see the previous post...



    Terry C

    Here is another shot of the '34 panel by the Swedes

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    392hemi

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    Myron wrote:
    The roadster, five window coupe, sport coupe, cabriolet, all have the bead around the trunk. That black fiber glass cabriolet or three window coupe that someone made into a roadster in post 53740 it looks like a three window coupe witch dose not have the bead around the trunk ... The Rod Bods rear quarter panels are a lot cheaper than the Brookville roadster rear quarter panels and will work just fine .... That is a three window coupe that someone made a roadster out of in post 53740 [ The Black Car] .....Myron ... Pittsburgh Pa.
    http://www.rodbodsusa.com/
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Myron,

    The cabriolets are like the 3 window coupes -- they don't have the beads along the side of the trunk. I asked Ralph Arias about this last night and here is his take: "a roadster and 5 window have vertical beads along the side edges of the trunk. The cabriolet and the 3 window have no beads along the side edges of the trunk. The cabriolet rear quarters have a bead the same as a 5 window at the fender opening, the roadster has what you could call a flair out to the fender, no bead but there is a defined line above the flair." BTW Ralph built a killer roadster -- here are pics: http://www.32hiboy.com/Ga[...]dex.htm

    Below is a photo of an original 1932 Ford Cabriolet from Joe


    And the photo below is another original cabriolet quarter:




    Below is another comparison between a roadster (on the left) and a cabriolet (on the right)




    Rule number one is to accumulate lots and lots of reference photos. We've added several more to Joe's album. You can see more shots of the red cabriolet in the album:http://allshops.org/cgi-b[...]0545874

    I don't know about the black car -- but this red one appears to be a genuine cabriolet.

    Terry C

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    bellettau

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    Hi all,

    I had a go at making a 30 Ford quarter a while back. While not the same as the quarter in question here, it is similar except for the swaging.
    I cut out 0.9mm steel (not sure of US size gage) to be a little bigger than the required finished piece then used an E wheel to get some crown into it. A pattern had been made previously by laying a thin cardboard over another car, then going round all the inside lines of the swage lines with a blunt pointer, to transfer the size to the pattern. The card board was then cut around these lines so it could be used to transfer the same points to the steel.

    The front edge of the quarter panel was folded over in a brake then shrunk untill the correct shape was restored.

    I had made a wooden (hi density fibre board or chipboard type material) pattern of the wheel well opening. This is where things are a bit different but on the '30, theres a swage line near the edge of the wheel well opening and also the material is bent over at 90 degreees here for attaching to the wheel well. I used the wood pattern to hammer form over the edge. Then I put all the swage lines in (Harbour freight swager).

    I also used the same wood form section that was removed from the sheet (a half circle) to make the actual wheel well piece, by hammer forming over a rounded edge of the wood.

    The only problem with my piece is that i did not get enough inwards tuck working towards the rear, before i put in the swaging. Its a bit hard now to work the flowing metal inwards as we work towards the rear. Possibly also, the wheeling should have been done with that in mind.

    This piece was only made to see if i could do it. It does not have a place in any of my projects. I never made the top edge but i figured it could be done in one piece, with the metal hammer formed and blocked out to shape with the mating edge of the section I did make, formed over in a similar fashion, then welded together.

    Glenn









    Attached Files:

  • LH_wheel_well.jpg (146 kb)
  • LH_Qtr_wheeled-swaged.jpg (142 kb)
  • LH_inside_swages.jpg (145 kb)
  • LH_qtr_end_swages_not_finished.jpg (146 kb)

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    392hemi

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    Glenn,
    This is they type of info we are looking for !!!

    I think the photos are too large to insert in the text -- I'll reduce them and see if that works.

    Terry

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    bellettau

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    Wink Thanks Terry
    i think i mucked up the picture insertion.

    Just a further point. I would make a simple wooden buck if i was serious about this and had to make both sides. If you make the wooden buck for one side but in a way that all pieces are reversable, you get the buck for BOTH sides.
    This is where a wire form loses out as you need to make a LH and RH set.

    It may not be visible in the wheel well pic. but the edge had been hammer formed over about 1/2" then a flat strip was curved and welded to it to form the inwards section of the wheel well. The picture is a bit dark but you can see a few MIG spots where the flat piece was added.

    Glenn

    (Australia)

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    stingshp

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    Joe
    #1 Strip panel and check condition of steel. and earlier repairs . the area below and behind door jam to front of bead line is always rusty and the back lower edge is a pocket in the trunk thats common damage . It was common to use a Big grinder to remove paint and lead in years past , but it also thinned the metal and gouged it .
    #2 Don't really know how to answer that ?
    #3 Check the other side for reference during job , use it for profile gauges and such . Most early cars weren't even in measurement from right to left production tolerences of the era . There is times when you need to stand back and look if its' right, not if it measures right.
    #4 I think somebody last night in Chat said he was going to start below top bead line , that would keep the warpage down .It's A low crown panel with a bead around it and a fold at the door edge . I think i would start with putting a crown/ raise in the panel then a door edge . Then i could locate it to put bead in ,and leave the fenderwell as separate section . The bead lines would be the trick cause they join to the rear upper section and then in the front to the lower door bead. As far as number of sections , i've started projects and thought i can do it in X number of sections only to end up with alot more but better fitted panels and easier to build .
    I don't know how much a repro panel is ,which is not the point here. But i've never put a repro panel on without one major change in it's shape that was wrong in the pressing . It is easier for me to make it and put the money and knowledge in my pocket than to order ,wait and modify panel when i get it. But i'm a tight Scottsman. GordonB

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    chisel

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    Hi Terry, I Read the photo attach instructions but it said applied to Yahoo? How do you get pictures in the body of the thread and not just as an attachment?

    Maybe you can insert this for me and then maybe I can do it next time.

    Thanks to everyone that responded here and on Saturdays chat. I feel at least this project is doable, but some of my family members tell me to order a tractor trailer size scrap bin.

    Help is needed on how to make the rear body corners and to form the beading down the side of the panel. The photo of the red body shows the bead. It starts at the top with a width of 1 7/8" and a height of 5/16" and tapers down to a width of 1" and a height of 3/16".
    Pictures 4a, 5a and 6a shows the left rear body corner that needs made. -- Joe
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Joe -- sorry about the instructions. We do need to modify them. To get the photos to show up -- first post them in your album. For photos here in the forums, it is best to reduce them to 350-400 pixels wide. Once the pics are loaded in your album, click on the thumbnail and enlarge it, then -- (for PC users) right click on the enlarged pic and get the properties which will show the address (URL) -- it will look something like this:
    http://allshops.org/community/CommunityAlbum/9990171151260.jpg

    Cut that address -- then come back to this forum and click "ADD An Image" and paste in that address. That will add a little coding to the front and rear of the address that will make the photo insert into the text, like the one below:


    Here are the other pics:


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    392hemi

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    Joe,

    Ron Covell and I have been talking about this project -- here are some of his comments below:

    If a Pullmax is available, that's the way to go! The bead profile on the door is a constant width, so it could be done with a single die set. The bead down the quarter panel tapers, so it would have to be done in two passes. While it's true that if you accidentally make a
    wiggle with a Pullmax, it's difficult to correct it, that is true with a beading machine, as well.


    If a person didn't have a Pullmax, the job could probably be done with a Pexto 622 or HF
    bead roller, doing one side of the bead at a time. I'd predict it would take several passes on each side, and the problem is always making sure that you follow the guide EXACTLY for each pass, since any little deviation will make a wiggle that's hard to fix. -- Ron

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    chisel

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    Terry:
    Can you elaborate a little on how you would make the tapered bead down the side of the quarter panel using the pullmax.
    Joe

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    392hemi

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    Jow wrote: Terry, Can you elaborate a little on how you would make the tapered bead down the side of the quarter panel using the pullmax.
    Joe
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Joe,

    You would have to do each side of the bead in separate passes, since it tapers. You can make a guide and clamp it to the panel something like the Sweedes did in the pic below...


    Or you can build a backstop into your tooling for the edge of the panel to run against as I did in the photo below:


    However, since (depending on how you shape your dies)the male portion of the die may be drawing metal into the bead and therefore pulling metal back from the backstop, you may have to offset the backstop so that the edge of the panel is running against the backstop just a little ahead of the contact area. We probably have some tool and die makers who can explain this better than I can.

    Or you can use the lower portion of a circle cutter to make a contour fence for the edge of the panel to run on (similar to using a pin router), build one from scratch, or buy Clay Cooks shown below:



    Whether you use a backstop on your tooling or a fence, you would have to trim the outer edge of the panel to run the inside of the bead first (the side toward the fender) and then re-cut the edge of the panel to properly position the outside edge of the bead. Does that make any sense?

    Does anyone else have any other suggestions?

    Terry C

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    chisel

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    Ok, I am starting to understand how to handle the width of the bead, but how do you handle the transitional height of the bead. It changes from 5/16"at the top to 3/16" at the bottom?
    Joe

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    admin

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    You would have to ask that (smile)... I was hoping someone else would jump in on that question.

    I can think of a number of ways to attempt it (none of which would be based on any first-hand experience, however -- so this could be a case of the blind leading the blind).

    We are only going from 5/16" to 3/16 so it is a fairly gradual drop of 1/8".

    Here is what I would try first... make the tooling to go the full depth of 5/16" plus the thickness of 19 gauge steel. Then from 19 gauge steel, cut a template of the entire bead a little longer than the full panel. Then cut another one beginning at the small end and cut it off about 3/4 of the length. Then cut another one that goes about 1/2 way and another at 1/4. Then stack the strips and weld where each one ends. Then grind the top three pieces to graduate down to the thickness of the bottom piece.

    Leave the bottom piece a little longer on both ends so it can be tack welded to the panel edge (leave a little surplus on the panel for this).

    Then when you run the panel through the Pullmax, the thickness of the template will limit the depth of the bead, the bead will taper from 5/16" to 3/16".

    Anyone else have any ideas? Someone in this group has to have done this before.

    Terry C

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    392hemi

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    Jim Bailie wrote: Terry I would like to help out on this one, but I have no idea how to do it and I'll bet I'm not the only one stumped on this one. Are you sure the bead your copying is suppose to have a taper in it's height? I don't think I've ever seen that on a car. -- jim

    ==================================================================================

    Jim,

    If you eyeball the bead on the '32 it does look taller where it meets the door than at the rear of the car:

    I went out and checked my '33 Dodge and it is even more tapered than the '32 Ford. I didn't get an exact measurement -- but it looked to be even more than 1/8" -- Terry
    ================================================================
    Reis Wrote:
    I havent seen this done on anything I can think of but there is no reason it isnt possible-
    It seems like it would be stamped with a fixed die in a press if you were doing it commercially. Like on a car- there is no single piece of sheet metal on a car that wont fit in one of those 50,000 ton presses in a car factory. And on a smaller scale, you could make up fixed dies and press it with a hydraulic press - length of bead would dictate size of press.
    And hand forming it, by hammerforming, would work just fine. Might have to hammerform the bead and say, an inch around it, then weld that into the panel. This would avoid whole panel warpage. Kind of the way you make a hood scoop separate, then add it to the hood.

    Regular bead rollers would not be the best for this job.

    You might be able to make a tapered jig for the piece, clamp it to that, then run it thru a pullmax. So the pullmax thinks it is making a constant depth bead. I have seen hand forming with custom tooling on an air chisel that could do this- you make a female die, then hammer form from the back with the air chisel- the hand held tool would allow you to tilt and
    follow the inside of the die more accurately.

    ries

    Thanks Ries.

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    stingshp

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    Group
    After reading replys , I lean towards hammerform working from the back side .You could build it and check it against the section of the Qrt. thats left .Thats a tuff one
    GMB

    ==========================================================================
    Group -- I'm adding Rick's comments on the bottom og Gordon's so they don't repost to the Yahoo list -- Admin
    ==========================================================================

    From Rick Mullin:

    I have been following this thread with interest. Firstly, I enjoy seeing all of the different ideas. Secondly, I think something very important is missing in the discussion of using beaders and Pullmax machines.

    I have a fair amount of experience making tapered beads. There are several techniques that I will describe that I have used. The first thing to look at however, is the actual process of making beads. For the most part, a beader or Pullmax only creates form. There is a little stretching going on. It is mostly form.

    When running a bead in a straight line across an entire panel [from edge to edge], you will get a distortion free panel. If the bead has a curve to it's path, it will force some degree of curvature (distortion) into the surrounding panel even if you have run from edge to edge. The more the bead curves, the more the panel will distort. Generally this is not a problem because most panels have some degree of curvature.

    One set of Rolls-Royce doors that I made had a sculpture line that ran across the top and curved down along the back to the bottom. It created a mild arch in the open area of the door panel that was actually beneficial to the final shaping with an e-wheel. This is not usually the case. This is trapped excess metal that is unstable and is relying strictly on the bead to hold it's shape. In the event of a curved bead, the bead area should first be stretched with a linear die, linear hammer or a high crown wheel. The bead can then be formed with a beader or Pullmax thus making the bead an object of shape rather than form and allowing the main area of the panel to remain distortion free due to the lack of excess material. I examined a Bugatti door that had a sculpture line that was a full C shape starting at the top front and swinging down and then forward again at the bottom. To avoid the center from being an uncontrolled bulge, the panel beater had cut the door panel about one inch in from the line and welded an entire center section into the door. It was, in fact, a work of art but certainly the hard approach. Had the line been fully stretched with a linear hammer, the sculpture line could have been installed with a beader without distorting the main panel.

    With this consideration of shape, I am concerned that the main body of the 1932 Ford quarter panel in question will distort without first stretching the arched beads. Even if the panel distortion were controllable without first stretching, the area in the lower rear where the beads meet would be a problem. Since that area would be two separate beads composed completely of form, there would be a great amount of shrinking required at that junction. I realize that the "Swede" displays a demonstration panel of such but it is obviously not really designed to be put on a car and is made of aluminum which can achieve more stretch from a beader than steel.

    So what about a tapered height bead? It is generally all about shape (stretch). Without first stretching the area to be beaded in a diminishing amount, the bead will distort the surrounding panel in some degree. It is a function of the amount of taper, the length of taper and the shape of the surrounding panel that will determine weather you can get away without first stretching. It has been my experience that it takes a relatively small amount of variation in bead height or width to create some distortion.

    There are several ways that I have achieved a height taper. The first way was described very nicely by Bob Nieke. I mark off increments on the panel and index the tightening crank on the beader and tighten or loosen as I move. I usually make four passes with the beader making it a little tighter each time until I reach my ultimate shape. This allows you to blend your taper and helps avoid making a mistake all at once. Since installing the bead is generally the last part of the panel construction, it pays to make a practice piece or two so as to not ruin the entire days work. This same technique works well with a Pullmax also.

    The next approach is to make a female hammer form. This is a nice way to get shape and form at the same time. I made a wheel arch form from wood and a router. I then tapered the surface with a grinder and hand plane. I made a second piece that was an outline of the arch that sandwiched the panel to be hammered. This kept the main panel from distorting and also eliminated any fears of the panel shifting in the form as I hammered. This is a very nice approach if the tapered bead is to fade out in the middle of a panel. I have made simple drive tools from hardware store grade round stock or hardwood to stretch the sides of the beads down into the form.

    For those of you who do not have a Pullmax, a quick one time hammer form can be much faster than machining a set of bead rollers. Methodical hammering can yield rather quick and accurate results.

    The third approach is to make a male hammer form. This can be done as a complete form or a partial which you move along the bead area. The idea is to make the male form and hammer (stretch) the side of the bead down. This method is easier if you first mark the panel in the area to be stretched and stretch it first on a sand bag or block of wood, a power hammer linear die or plannishing hammer linear die. The form can then be used to set the edges and create the correct bead form and taper. If there is not enough shape, you can go back and hammer more and then reform. With this type of hammer form, you need not have the taper built into it. You need only monitor the amount of shape you are creating and the subsequent form that is set can be monitored with a contour gauge or achieved visually. I used a variation of this method to create several aluminum doors for some BMW 507s. The bead tapered in width and height as well as faded away in the center of the door. I sandwiched varying lengths of steel strips at an angle between long blocks of wood. This gave a steel protrusion that tapered in length and width. The cross section of the wood was curved to match the vertical curvature of the door. I hammered the line in the skin on a hardwood bench with a linear hammer. I then clamped the skin onto the form and hammered the sides down creating the correct form. A small amount of additional stretch was required but could be achieved by hammering the line while mounted on the form.

    I am sure there are plenty of other methods to try. These are just some that have worked for me. The important thing to consider is if it is a form or shape issue and that you do not need a lot of fancy tools to do an accurate and quick job. I have most of the fancy tools and I often prefer the simple ones. I hope this has been of some help.
    Rick




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    chisel

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    Now that Shape & Form has my head spinning, I need to get on to something that I might be able to understand. Thanks to everyone I have several ways I could proceed with making the taper bead. I would like to first try to make it using the Pullmax.
    Questions:
    1. What die[male or female] do you want on top and why?
    2. How do you get from the bead to the die?
    3. What material is best to make the dies from?
    4. What shape to make the edges of the dies?
    5. How wide does the contact area need to be and how much to round them off?
    Joe Chick

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    392hemi

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    Joe wrote:
    Now that Shape & Form has my head spinning, I need to get on to something that I might be able to understand. Thanks to everyone I have several ways I could proceed with making the taper bead. I would like to first try to make it using the Pullmax.
    Questions:
    1. What die[male or female] do you want on top and why?

    Good question. Does anyone have any pros or cons for which one should be on top (male or female)?

    I've always wondered if it would be possible to make an upper male die that is spring loaded with grippers that would hit on either side of the bead first to keep the metal from being pulled into the bead and force it to stretch when the center male comes down. Has anyone ever tried this with a Pullmax?

    2. How do you get from the bead to the die?

    Joe -- do you mean how to match the contour of the bead?


    3. What material is best to make the dies from?
    4. What shape to make the edges of the dies?
    5. How wide does the contact area need to be and how much to round them off?

    You plan to make at least four quarter panels -- right?

    Does anyone have an opinion on die material, width, amount of contact area etc?

    Terry C

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    chisel

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    Hi Terry:
    Item #2 Yes, what process is used to copy the bead and make the dies?
    Yes I need 2 pairs of quarters to restore 2 cabriolet bodies.
    Joe Chick

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    392hemi

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    Jow wrote:
    Item #2 Yes, what process is used to copy the bead and make the dies?
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Joe,

    Since it is something most of us have in the shop -- bondo over Gladwrap is often used to make a female impression of a small section. That can be used as your contour template mark your cut line and to check check the male die against. Or you could use clay even.

    No more parts than you are going to make -- I would think that aluminum would be good enough for the die material. Anyone have any suggestions for a specific aluminum?


    You could also possibly use an RTV silicone and cast both sides to make molds of low melt Cerro alloys, but I don't know how well they would hold up. I know we've discussed low-melt alloys but I can't remember if anyone has ever used it for Pullmax dies.

    Terry C

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    392hemi

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    Doug Wrote:
    Group,

    Since we're talking beads, here's a re-post of my P3 beading attachment I made.

    This one almost totally "forms" the bead with stretching.

    See the attached picture. Notice the piece with beads in it is not distorted. If the material was pulled in from the surrounding area there would be distortion in such a small piece.

    Doug

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Doug,

    Thanks for the re-post. I had forgotten about this -- but now I remember it. You sent set-by-step photos I think. If you could post those in an album -- we could add them to messges for discussion as I did below. Could you go over the design again for the new guys and those of us with bad memories?

    Quick question -- where the arrow is -- it looks like a little indention on each side -- is that part of the design of the bead. I can't tell from the photo.

    I'm sure glad you sent this -- it gives me an idea.

    Thanks!

    Terry C


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    bellettau

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    Tapered beads.

    don't have a picture handy but one way i have made a tapered bead is to make the bead on the panel you want, in the profile you need for one half of it.The lowe half say.
    Then, make the profile for the other side of the required bead on another piece of steel.

    Now, you split (cut) down the "centre" of the both pieces to achieve the taper you want, then weld the 2 pieces together with the result that you have a tapered bead.

    I have used this method to make the large tapered bead on the side of a '30 Ford cowl for example. This bead starts at about 3/4" wide and tapers up to near 2" with a curve in the top of the bead that matches the gas tank on top of the cowl.

    The bead on the side of a rear qtr panel, while narrower, should be possible especially since the top section also needs to be formed over to meet the sides of the trunk area.
    I always used O/A welding and found distortion not to be a problem if the welds are short and a little hammer work is done after each weld, then let to cool.

    This method beats hammer forming for the simple reason that a beading tool gives a nicer, sharper edge to the bead, more like the original.

    Glenn

    (Australia)

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